Curse

moko · Oct 17, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

Also its interesting to note that Dervish and Paragon have exactly the same number of skills and exactly the same number of those are elites. Obviously that was intentional, so its likely some are simply "filler."

so, they could've left AoB and "The Power Is Yours!" out. -2 trash elites and it remains the same number.

t00115577 · Oct 17, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

There is no discussion here, AoB is crap

Infact most of the avatars are crap with the exception of Dwayna (pve) and Melandru (pvp) and only whammos use them. Other Dervish elites are much better.

Well my opinion anyway, but i hate dervishs so i prob dont know how good other avatars are.

Coloneh · Oct 17, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by t00115577

Well my opinion anyway, but i hate dervishs so i prob dont know how good other avatars are.

please dont bother posting if you have no experience with the class. I keep my nose out of the Paragon and mesmer sections, keep yours out of dervish.

Tyla · Oct 17, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by t00115577

and only whammos use them.

i use avatar of lyssa/melandru/dwayna....does that make me a wammo then?

Coloneh · Oct 18, 2007, 01:24 AM // 01:24

no, he said in the next sentence he dosnt know dervs.

Darkside · Oct 18, 2007, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by t00115577

There is no discussion here, AoB is crap

Infact most of the avatars are crap with the exception of Dwayna (pve) and Melandru (pvp) and only whammos use them. Other Dervish elites are much better.

Well my opinion anyway, but i hate dervishs so i prob dont know how good other avatars are.

Lol... are you for real?

angmar_nite · Oct 18, 2007, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Avatar of Lyssa is definitely my favourite. Pity it's so ugly. But the spikes you can deal, and the energy pool... wow. It's pretty nice.

Dean Harper · Oct 18, 2007, 04:19 AM // 04:19

I personally cant think of AoB as good in any way. AoL and AoM are MUCH better skills.

Str0b0 · Oct 18, 2007, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean Harper

I personally cant think of AoB as good in any way. AoL and AoM are MUCH better skills.

You want to hear the sad thing there? I've noticed that the majority of dervish players posting here have said AoB is crap and recommended viable alternatives to it and yet somehow people keep sneaking AoB into groups and people allow it. I've gotten to the point where I will flat out kick anyone using AoB in a group on general principle and I have yet to regret it since nine out of ten times they are running some horrible tanking build that screws the damage output of the entire party. I'm glad that a lot of dervishes know the truth and know what works and what doesn't but it boggles my mind that so many more don't.

I wonder if there are threads like this on other fansites. I wonder if the other fansite derv players are aware that AoB sucks or if I were to go to another fansite would I see the derv build forum full of crappy AoB tanking builds? I ask because obviously someone, somewhere is telling people that AoB is not only viable but more useful than the other avatars in PvE and that sort of misinformation deserves to be stamped out.

I suppose I should be grateful for the few who do know though and I can only hope that in time people will realize,"Hey this sucks." I won't hold my breathe though. Too many people picked up the dervish because of the scythe and hood and then with AoB you get to turn into this big nasty looking creature with horns and armor and such. I can see how that would appeal to the fashion derv.

~ Dan ~ · Oct 18, 2007, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

I suppose I should be grateful for the few who do know though and I can only hope that in time people will realize,"Hey this sucks." I won't hold my breathe though. Too many people picked up the dervish because of the scythe and hood and then with AoB you get to turn into this big nasty looking creature with horns and armor and such. I can see how that would appeal to the fashion derv.

Do not lose hope! Hopefully the discussion in this thread can finally make clear to Dervishes all over the globe that AoB is useless.

Sir Pandra Pierva went from this:

Quote:

[skill]Vital Boon[/skill][skill]Twin Moon Sweep[/skill][skill]Mystic Sweep[/skill][skill]Eremite's Attack[/skill][skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill][skill]Signet of Pious Light[/skill][skill]Avatar of Balthazar[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

To this:

Quote:

I use AoB to run droks a lot. Other than running I am now starting to find that it is nothing more than a nub skill all together.

It is working, it is working..

Cebe · Oct 18, 2007, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

so, they could've left AoB and "The Power Is Yours!" out. -2 trash elites and it remains the same number.

But but... Didn't Paragons lose another elite as soon as Nightfall came out?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

It is working, it is working..

Isn't it great when a plan comes together?

Quote:

Originally Posted by t00115577

Infact most of the avatars are crap with the exception of Dwayna (pve) and Melandru (pvp) and only whammos use them.

Ok, first off, it's 'Wammo'...spell it right.

Next up, clearly you've not used Avatars, or if you have, you've used them badly. I used to think "meh, they're just gimmicky nonsense" when Nightfall came out, but no. I was wrong. With a little "training" I was showed the way of the Avatar Dervish...conveniently ignoring Avatar of Balthazar of course. The Avatars are not only used by Wammos, but unfortunately, a number of people do use them badly, creating the stereotype you currently hold.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Oct 18, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

That build I posted I made when NF first came out, but I found it starts to work better with AoD. But overall now adays I stay away from avatar dervs I have just found I prefer the other derv elites other than the avatars, they are good for things but I have just come not to use them.

Str0b0 · Oct 19, 2007, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Pandra Pierva

That build I posted I made when NF first came out, but I found it starts to work better with AoD. But overall now adays I stay away from avatar dervs I have just found I prefer the other derv elites other than the avatars, they are good for things but I have just come not to use them.

Good man. I'm glad to hear that you are checking out some of the other elites. My personal favorite has been and always will be EDA. I lurve it so much that my Torment Scythe is ebon.

~ Dan ~ · Oct 19, 2007, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Good man. I'm glad to hear that you are checking out some of the other elites. My personal favorite has been and always will be EDA. I lurve it so much that my Torment Scythe is ebon.

Mine too

You get the best of both worlds really. Whilst shutting out the melee threats of the opposition you can also deal respectable damage. Just need that torm weapon and i'm done...

evilseabass · Oct 19, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

AoB is an AWESOME skill!

It gives my elementalist a reason to take Churning Earth into Random Arenas...

Sirius-NZ · Oct 24, 2007, 02:32 PM // 14:32

(Yes PSC warning, I know)

First reaction to this thread was to laugh and shake my head, but AoB isn't that good that it really makes a difference anyway. On the other hand, some of the proposed exchanges - especially the 60 armour one for dropping speed - would be really funny if they made it.

Firstly, agreed, AoB is a big "don't use" in PvP - because you don't really need any of the buffs. 40 armour? Sure, but it doesn't help against necro spikes, which are the big killers anyway. Conviction reduces ele/warrior damage enough not to be too lethal, and it's cheap. Holy damage doesn't help in PvP, and the speed boost ... you ... don't use a dervish for speed. That's a sin's job, because it can shadow step/cripple the offending fleer anyway.

So, with that out of the way, the PvE side of things - yes, it is a general-purpose noob skill. If you don't have any elites, it's an obvious choice. If you do, then more thinking first is advised.

Personally, I've seen a lot of use out of AoB, but that's because I ran the vast majority of all three campaigns solo with a triad of searing flames ele heroes, and all they really needed was a solid tank to keep things off them. I realised that AoB, in combination with eternal aura and stoneflesh aura, just will not take any damage in 90% of the game and served the part admirably. Didn't do much of the damage, but when you're backed up by SF spammers you don't really need to.

My own take on the collection of buffs:
Speed: Agreed, it's effectively useless. It saw *marginal* use trying to intercept stuff that was attacking the eles/monks, but it's not something I couldn't do without.

Armour: Obvious. +40 armour halves damage from most sources - except flat damage, which mainly happens from necros and degen. Fairly good, substantially better than conviction and really anything reasonable except armour of earth ... and it's a lot faster than AoE...

Holy damage: Yeah, I know what everyone thinks about it, and it's not that great at all. Well, it wouldn't be except for two things.
Firstly, undead take double damage from holy. You don't spend much of the game fighting them though... except in the desolation and realm of torment. I've found holy damage very, very nice to have there.
Secondly, almost NOTHING has any extra resistance to holy damage. That's the real kicker in some situations - wurms take very little damage from standard sources... then you try holy damage and it's like they have 60 armour just like everything else. It ignores pretty much everything.

(There are of course better ways to kill wurms. haha)

The main problem with AoB is that none of these buffs are irreplaceable, and none of them are that stunning either. Conviction may not be as strong, but it's good enough. HoHF does the same thing if you really want holy damage. There is one last point for consideration though; not only does AoB roll them all into one - which may be important depending how cramped your skill bar would be - it is also completely impossible to strip the effects.

That's something HoHF, conviction, whatever... don't have. You can pull the enchantments off, break the stances, etc ... but you can't remove a dervish form. The enemy just has to deal with the half damage, lack of resistances, etc. (Not going to mention speed since even I think it's silly - the few occasions I might want it there's a very nice signet that does exactly the same job when I usually don't need the skill bar space.)

What it comes down to, IMHO, is your group. Chances are, they've already got stuff to fulfill all the roles AoB attempts to, and don't need another leeroy character from a class that isn't really meant for it. In this case it's a silly choice - the Dervish has some great special-purpose builds that will help a balanced party, and none of them involve AoB. (One of my favourites at the moment involves AoL with radiant scythe, not surprisingly.)

If you're soloing, which usually involves all the mobs rushing your casters like their lives depend on it (which, hey, I guess they do with the SFs) then AoB can actually be very useful. Well, as long as you supplement it with the right skills - AoB won't stop you dying - still have to use some common sense too. But don't expect the damage to be as awesome as you were hoping from a "warrior" form. If that's your meat, try something off-the-wall like sand shards with signet of midnight. The results are *MUCH* more spectacular.

Or you could just run a BP build instead, and not have to worry about protecting casters...

So, conclusion - AoB
Good for: Soloing RoT with SF heroes
Bad for: Pretty much everything else (sometimes steps up to "mediocre", see wurms)

Re-reading the rest of this thread I suspect this will attract more than a few flames actually *cough* But the OP did ask for opinions, so...

John Panda · Oct 24, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

in my honest opinion i believe that Avatar Of Balthazar should be buffed in some way <<

draxynnic · Oct 26, 2007, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius-NZ

Re-reading the rest of this thread I suspect this will attract more than a few flames actually *cough* But the OP did ask for opinions, so...

Yep. You've committed the absolutely unforgivable sin of suggesting that AoB could be useful for anything at all. Better hope you've got your flame-resistant suit on.

For what it's worth, though, I think your analysis is right on the ball.

MrFinklestein · Oct 26, 2007, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Panda

in my honest opinion i believe that Avatar Of Balthazar should be buffed in some way <<

Yes it indeed should be made useful.

Str0b0 · Oct 26, 2007, 05:27 AM // 05:27

No he won't get flamed because he presented his points in a valid manner with supporting evidence that actually makes sense. Consequentially he hasn't said anything that all of us haven't said already. We agree that every buff AoB can offer is useful in very specific instances but the fact that those instances are so specific renders the skill as a whole useless simply because there is no place in the game where you need all three buffs active. So what you get is people using an elite to get just one buff from it and wasting the elite slot when they could have taken another skill and got the same effect and kept an elite slot open.